Clarifying for Eaglewood
February 12th, 2008I started to reply in comments and realized this was a follow-up post. I’m sorry, Eaglewood. I truly do love you like a brother and I’m not picking on you. Just the opposite. You challenge me and give me an opportunity to address the issues that I started this blog to deal with. I know I’ve done this to you before, but it’s not personal and I’m not attacking you. You simply give me great opportunities to make my point.
I’m grateful for that. Seriously. I truly say that in love.
Eaglewood said:
Cowboy,
I am glad to see you posting again. I know we have had our differences in the past and we will probably have some here as well, but I want to agree with you first. Kirk and friends are doing things the wrong way. Scaring people does nothing but scare them away. I will even agree with you and the third commandment. But where we part company here is on whether or not the ten commandments are now two. I know what you are referencing here and it comes from the Pharisees attempting to trip up Yeshua in asking him what the greatest commandment was. He summed up the ten commandments into two. He did not say that they replaced the ten or that what he said negated them in any was as part of the Law. Yeshua himself said that He came to fulfil the Law not to destroy it. Also by saying the ten are now the two you are in danger of making the claim that He has changed when he has specifically said he is the same past, present, or future.
We are all guilty of trying to put Him into a box that fits our comfort level. I know we have discussed this before and I know where you stand but others may not. There is a great danger when we simply approach Him from one angle and only discuss one aspect of Him. Love is only one aspect, He is Holy, Righteous, and The Great I AM. He has more facets then we as mere mortals could even begin to comprehend. You know there have been times that I needed Him to be Daddy, but I have never forgotten that he is the all-powerful creator of the universe and is more than worthy of my total worshipful adoration.
I get all that. I don’t think we differ all that much on theology. Where we differ (and where I have a problem with Ray and Kirk) is on focus.
We have been sent to seek the lost. Our Father, and His first begotten son (not only) have never done it by pointing out to people that they’re sinners and need a savior. They do it by simply being available when the sinner realizes that.
The law is flawed and never was intended to be anything more than a way to show us our need for a savior. But you can’t start there with the unsaved.
“It is the goodness of the Lord that brings a man to repentance.”
How many times do I have to quote that before people start believing The Bible and paying attention to what Jesus said? (Yes, I know Jesus didn’t literally say those words. That was written by Paul in Romans 2 and I’ve paraphrased it, too. I suggest you read it in context before you get back to me.)
They will know us by our love. Religion is a gigantic distraction from our Father’s love and the only thing our enemy has ever done well. Ray and Kirk are just two of many that missed the point and gotten caught in the trap. Some times you talk like one, too. That’s not an insult. I grew up in it. I understand.
It’s a lie.
He cares not a whit about rules. He really honestly doesn’t. Living a life with Him is never, ever about the house rules. He doesn’t care about that. He cares about people. That’s it. He’s about nothing but Love, people and connecting the two. All that stuff you say about His Holiness and Righteousness and all that - it’s all true because it’s describing who He IS. It doesn’t describe how He ACTS. First Corinthians 13 and First John 4 do that. (Pair those up and try to reconcile it with what religion has taught you. If you’re not convinced when you’re done with that, call me; I have more ammo.)
He’s not asking you to obey anything! He just doesn’t. Ever. Do. That. That’s religion that does that. He just wants you to get to know Him and spend some time with Him now and then. Everything else will grow out of that relationship. You can’t start at the end. That’s what religion does. You can’t keep any commandments without Him. With Him, you want to and He’ll teach you how.
You said:
Love is only one aspect, He is Holy, Righteous, and The Great I AM. He has more facets then we as mere mortals could even begin to comprehend. You know there have been times that I needed Him to be Daddy, but I have never forgotten that he is the all-powerful creator of the universe and is more than worthy of my total worshipful adoration.
You missed it in the first five words there. You cannot possibly say that “love is only one aspect” when He said that He IS Love! Can I make that little word anymore powerful in any way in this medium? How big, how bold do I need to make it before you give up your religion and realize that He’s not enforcing rules? He doesn’t need you to keep apologizing for His alleged contradictions. He simply needs for you to represent Him accurately to the lost.
I couldn’t help but think when I read what you wrote there, “You haven’t begun to touch worship because you’re still playing with the religious ideas that were designed to keep you from actually knowing Him.”
He doesn’t demand or require worship! He recommends it because it’s good for us and He IS Love. I don’t worship Him because He requires it. I worship Him because He’s worthy. When I got to know Him, it was a natural response. Do you see the difference?
Lemme put it another way - I thought I was worshiping Him for years because I grew up in church, I was “saved” when I was six years old and preaching at eight. It’s what I was taught. Much later in my life, I actually got to know Him on a personal level. When that happened, everything changed. I don’t worship Him because I feel like I have to or because He demands it. I worship Him because knowing Him inspires it. It’s the only natural response to His Love.
Getting back to the point: Knock it off with the religion and the rules. That’s not what He’s about. He just Loves you. He just Loves “them.” He is love and He’s patiently waiting for you to get past your religious contamination so that you can get to know Him.
While you’re arguing over the rules of your doctrine and having “theological” debates over scripture with people like me, people are going to Hell because they don’t know what He’s really like. They’ve been sold a lie about Him. I would reject the God most churches teach, too. That god is unreasonable, irrational, obnoxious and demanding.
Fortunately, that’s not who He is. He’s peace. He’s love. He’s joy. He’s my Daddy. And He’s looking to grow the family. Everyone is welcome.
UPDATE: Upon re-reading this, I realized that I was unfair to eaglewood. It was merely sloppiness but that doesn’t excuse it. Much of what I said was not directed at him personally but at the religious ideas he raised and I was addressing.
A response to this requires more time than I am allowed for this kind of thing at work (breaks & lunch). I want to respond clearly and forthrightly. It will probably be over at my blog as well due to length. I will let you know when I have completed it.
I welcome that, eaglewood. I also am about to update the post to point out that much of what I said there wasn’t directed at you personally. I was responding to religious ideas that you raised and that I despise.
I was sloppy about it and for that, I’m sorry.
Thanks, and I will tone my reply with that understanding
Well, you came back with passion. :) Sigh. I’m afraid if I try to engage in this particular debate I’ll end up sounding like an ass.
Besides, I don’t think we disagree. I think we see different angles of the same Truth. This is what helps us sharpen each other and also aids in keeping me remembering the Main Things.
Ok, We are up and cooking with gas.
I would love your feedback, heidi. For the very reason you stated - we sharpen each other this way.
In fact, I’m not so sure that eaglewood and I disagree much.
For me it’s about rooting out religious lies and making sure the focus is right. As I said to eaglewood on his blog, these are not arguments that should be had in the view of the lost. But I think they’re very important.
If you can show me where I’m wrong with the Word, please do it. Not just for my sake, but for everyone else reading.
I promise I’ll be far more gentle than I was the first time we disagreed. I’ve learned a lot about Love since then.
}:-)
Well, for one, the first “religious lie” I like to address when discussing Torah is that we were never commanded to “fulfill” but rather to “observe”. Since I’m a Jew, this makes it a bit easier for me to get my brain around “do this for all generations” and “this shall be a covenant between Me and you for all generations”.
Simply. All means all or it doesn’t mean jack. Now, in light of that, please understand I am not discussing Salvation. That only came through blood. Ever. With the blood of the Perfect Sacrifice, Yeshua, physical sacrifice of lambs, doves and bulls became non-essential. And as there is no Temple, an impossibility. One of the ways Judaism was unique from the pagan cultures of Moses’ time was that they could sacrifice on any hilltop they found and under any tree. According to Torah only the High Priest could offer a sacrifice for Atonement on the bronze altar at the Tabernacle and later the Temple.
Now, for the other issues. I like to say there are Ten Commandments and 603 suggestions. Many of the “suggestions” are embedded within any litigious society. (I know, don’t pull the anarchy card.) Things like “pay your workers on time”, “be good to your slaves”, “feed your animals” are part and parcel of any civilized community. The one that hits closer to home is “love your neighbor as yourself”.
What we don’t often see is the Big Ten, The Commandments, don’t start with “Have no other gods before Me.” According to the Hebrew text (which I have and have also read) it starts with the commandment to “Yahweh, the Lord Your G-d”. Yahweh (the supreme name of G-d) followed by the “et” which is the unwritten name of G-d and shown by the Aleph Tav (loosely in Greek Alpha Omega). G-d, in all His Glory is All and He is the One who “brought you out”. So, apparently the Prime Directive, as it were, is to remember He is Supreme and our Deliverer. Our Salvation. Yeshua? (as the rest of that particular verse details).
But in light of a growing faith, what is our response to Him? What can we offer to Him that pleases Him? To live according to the manner He prescribes. Love the Lord your G-d with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. To keep those two commandments, as voiced by Yeshua, will by the very nature of the obedience also ensure you are also following the heart of all the Torah and the Prophets. You cannot love G-d and call His Name in vain, bow before other gods, and so on. You cannot love your neighbor and dishonor, lie to, steal from and covet. Those don’t encapsulate love.
We read 10-15 mitzvot (commandments) from Torah every night and discuss them with our children. Do you know what we are discovering? We are finding we don’t need to reinvent the wheel or wonder about situational ethics. We have a G-d who is wise enough to see the end from the beginning and He knows every situation we will ever face. He also knows every temptation we will be challenged by and through His wisdom and clear instruction provides many ways of escape by simply warning us of the pitfalls and consequences ahead of time.
I can’t “fulfill” Torah. I’m not a man, I’m not a Levite, I’m not a priest and I’m not Yeshua. There are specific directions given for all of the above that I am simply never going to have to think about. I can’t go to the Temple for this or that sacrifice.
I’m not worried about the stuff which doesn’t apply to me. I’m not worried about the stuff that does. If G-d requires something of me, it’s His job to both equip and strengthen me to accomplish His goals.
I just have to be available and willing to be used. Malleable.
And thusly ends the epistle of Heidi tonight!
Pick me apart. Be gentle.
Argh. Should never proofread @ 11:30
“According to the Hebrew text (which I have and have also read) it starts with the commandment to “Yahweh”
Should READ: According to the Hebrew text (which I have and have also read) the commandments start with a declaration:“Yahweh…
I”m really not a moron. Really.
That’s why I drew that out of you, Heidi. It was inspiring and I learned a lot. Thank you.
(Is that gentle enough?)
I’m not quite sure where you disagreed with me at all. Maybe I’m dense. You did say:
I’m not worried about the stuff which doesn’t apply to me. I’m not worried about the stuff that does. If G-d requires something of me, it’s His job to both equip and strengthen me to accomplish His goals.
Unless I misunderstood you, that’s a much more elegant way of saying what I was stumbling around: It all grows out of relationship. Without a relationship the rules are just bondage. With relationship, the rules are unnecessary.
I also thought immediately of Isa. 1:19 when I read that paragraph. That’s all He needs.
That’s where religious people miss it and why I believe religion is nothing more than satanic distraction. Religion is obsessed with Isa. 1:20. It misrepresents my Daddy and that makes me angry.
At the root of every religion is fear. They try to convince everyone that my Daddy has a “mean side.” Religion skips the word “willing” and focuses on “obedient” in 1:19 and then “drops the hammer” with 1:20.
It’s a lie. The enemy works in fear. The God I serve works in love.
Religion is the worst manifestation of gossip. It’s also ignorant deception.
I wasn’t disagreeing with you, per se, I was merely addressing one of the religious lies which are often propagated when many believers talk about Torah. They are often discussing aspects of the Word they’ve never read or never read from the perspective of learning anything!
Our faith originates in relationship is shown through relationship. But every relationship has “rules” or parameters which define the commitment level of those involved. I adore my G-d, my Father, my KIng, my Brother and my closest Friend. I show that adoration by seeking to live in a way that makes Him happy. It’s not bondage because unless the Spirit strengthens me, I can’t do anything anyway! And except Yeshua covers me it’s all “filthy rags”.
Obedience is better than sacrifice and yes, love trumps all. (thought I’d throw in a cards analogy for you). But love prompts obedience and obedience reinforces love. It’s a pretty cool circle.
This is one of the sweetest things I’ve ever heard:
“I worship Him because knowing Him inspires it. It’s the only natural response to His Love.”
Question for both Heidi and Cowboy.
Both of your comments leave me with a question of you both. Who is Yeshua? Are you both saying that he was just a man - a very important man, but just a man?
Of course not, Geppy. I don’t know how you could have gotten that impression from either me or heidi. (I’m not sure, but I think I can speak for her on this… up to this point. The rest is most certainly not speaking for her. Most of it will, but she might disagree with some of it.)
Yeshua was the second Adam, born of a virgin and without sin. He came into the world for two purposes. The first - and most important - was obviously to redeem us from the curse.
The second was to teach us how to properly live by faith. Were it not for that purpose, he could have been crucified many years before he was. He lived for thirty years before his three years of ministry and then death, resurrection and ascension.
He’s no longer known as Yeshua. He’s been given a name that is above every name and at that name every knee must bow. (Unlike the fallen, we get to choose whether we do it now or later.) He’s seated at the right hand of the Father and is the first born among many brethren. I’m a “joint-heir” with him according to Paul. The New Testament is his last will and testament - a will that leaves everything to those who believe in him.
You and I are the heirs of that testament. It’s our job to learn how to execute the estate.
Thank you for the answer Cowboy. But, that answer still leaves me with the same impression; that Yeshua was just a man as we are. But I appreciate your taking the time to answer me when we have never spoken before.
I’m not sure how you could read what I wrote there and still misunderstand, Geppy. I’ve re-read what I wrote and I think you must be trying.
Yeshua was born special. But he was born -and lived - as a man. He became something much more.
His name is no longer Yeshua. That was his name when he was “just” a man. He’s now been elevated and been given a name above every name.
He came to pave a way for us who were really are “just” men to become something greater.
Yes Cowboy, I really am trying to understand what you are saying instead of what others hear you say. :) Nor am I a troll.
It just seems that you are saying that what Yeshua became after the resurrection is what makes him special. It seems to deny that he was before his birth and that his being has always been far more than just a man, or that he has always been at the right hand of the Father.
I’m just trying to find what you yourself are saying. And I have not yet found that in previous posts.
I think this may be part of what Eaglewood is also searching thru - though I cannot speak for him.
Again, thanks for your time.