Dispelling myths for almost 2 months
March 27th, 2005Elena, dear, I love you and I’m not picking on you. I’m really not. As I said in this post, I’m not attacking people, I’m attacking the things that deceive them.
Being compelled in worship to bend the knee or to bow down is scriptural (see Psalm 95:6 and Jesus’ “confrontation” with the guards in the garden of Gethsemane in John 18:3-6). Being “slain” is likely not.
I can show it to you biblically but I’m not inclined to do the research at 3 in the morning. I’ll do a post on it soon. In the meantime, let me give you anecdotal, personal testimony. I’ve experienced it more than once. You can read “it” there to mean the anointing so strong I was knocked down and could not stand. I can assure you that when a well-trained alpha male is laying on the floor quite unexpectedly and feels physical pressure on his chest keeping him there while he worships God, it’s neither emotionalism or satanic. It sure isn’t fake. I’ve never had an anointed man of God “push me down.” I have been literally knocked down by the power of Holy Spirit more than once. ( I should note that Holy Spirit is a gentleman; in each case I had the power to override Him and stand but not the desire. That’s the definition of submission.)
I have read other comments from Christians who have done biblical research and “field” research (observing in churches) that much of the behavior attributed to the Holy Spirit is actually learned behavior—the babbling speech, the raising of hands, the falling onto the floor. One such commenter said that he didn’t think everything in the Pentecostal or Charismatic churches is bad. Some of what is going on may truly be of the Holy Spirit. I’d say that if a person’s life shows growing development of fruit, particular the nine-fold fruit of the Spirit, then likely the filling of the indwelling Holy Spirit is taking place—but it’s not just a one-time deal.
The infilling of the Holy Spirit is most definitely scriptural and a “one-time deal” (in the sense that it’s an eternally life changing event, in the same way as being born again) and I have nothing but contempt for the spirit that motivates religious people doing “field research” into how the Spirit of God chooses to operate. I would strongly suggest that you quickly begin to ignore everything they say. They may be “Christians” but they are deceived and on an ill-conceived and dangerous mission that will only yield truth if Holy Spirit intervenes with them personally. (Possible, but not likely; they’re most likely not really seeking Him and He’s a gentleman.) You just described everything I despise about religion. The Bible says “seek and you shall find.” It doesn’t say anything about “field research” or “observation.” Those people are “observing” something about which they have no understanding, when they should be seeking Him for the answers to their questions. I suspect they didn’t start with questions and went out seeking confirmation of their answers. They’re wrong. And I speak in tongues, too. Boo! It certainly is learned behavior and I learned it from the Holy Spirit.
From my understanding, the Holy Spirit fills and works through us when we submit, feed on the Word (read it and think about it), pray (listen to God and talk to Him), and do good works (leading, teaching, serving, praying for intercession, giving, taking care of folks, etc.). The gifts of the Spirit are not for our own puffing up but are for the discipling of Christ-followers, so that the body of Christ is indeed unified and that in Christ we grow up from baby Christians feeding on the basic truths of Scripture to be mature Christians who submit daily to God and who feed on the deep things of God.
That’s what religion teaches and why I hate it so. With the exception of the first line, everything you said in that paragraph is true and being distorted and misapplied by the misunderstanding you started with. (I’m also a bit concerned about the mention of “good works,” but I’ll let that slide and assume the best with you because you’ve demonstrated to me that your heart for God is sincere.)
Too many instances of Scripture describe the difficulties that Christians will face, for us to believe that God wants us to be totally without pain, disease, heartache, or poverty in this world. Peter, John, and Paul advise and encourage Christians for the times WHEN (which means, “they’re gonna come, dearhearts!”) the natural course of life will assail us and persecution will afflict us. Christians today sit in jails, struggle through illnesses of all sorts, face family situations they promised themselves they would do everything to prevent. I don’t think it is a lack of prayer or a lack of faith that causes those things. And anyone who attributes the situation to one of those lacks is bound to offend/hurt the person going through that situation.
Prediction is not endorsement. If you do not believe that “God wants us to be totally without pain, disease, heartache, or poverty in this world,” you’re not reading the same book I am. Throughout the Bible, God makes that truth clear. He said, I’m He “that gives you power to get wealth.” (Deut. 8:18) He said that he wished us to be in health and prosper even as our soul prospers in III John 1:2. He said He was the LORD that heals us (both physically and emotionally) in at least 5 places I can think of off the top of my head. (Ex. 15:26, (I am the Lord that heals you), Psalms 103:3 (heals ALL my diseases), Psalms 147:3 (heals my broken heart), Isaiah 53 through the end of the book of Isaiah is almost entirely about the subject and is quoted by Peter in I Peter 2:24. (Isaiah said we are, Peter said by His stripes we were healed.
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
He also said, “My people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge.” – Hosea 4:6
You can’t believe in salvation by faith without believing in healing by faith (both emotional and spiritual), or prosperity by faith. He paid the price for us all and purchased the whole package. Hardship will come, but He doesn’t change and He’s made His position very clear. He went out of His way to do it and still does. Do you believe that only some people that pray the “prayer of salvation” get saved? Then you cannot believe that only some people who pray for healing will get it. The same sacrificial Lamb provided both at the same time during the same process.
Larry’s reply, number 47, and Arielle’s reply, number 50, are the keys to the problem in “mainline” churches today. Makes me think of Casting Crowns’s song “If We Are the Body.” I think the problem is our disobedience, which may point to a lack of faith or just to spiritual laziness and continued rebellion. We sometimes are the younger brother and sometimes the older (see Jesus’ parable about the forgiving father). We need to be demonstrating the love of the forgiving father…rather, Father.
Religion is a satanic tool that has been used successfully for over 2000 years to keep people ignorant. For a long time, he managed to keep the Bible out of people’s hands entirely. Ever since God raised up Gutenberg and Luther to solve that problem, he’s been distorting it. You’re absolutely right that we’re the problem. When reality and scripture don’t line up, religion makes up stuff to explain it away. I want to know why it’s not lining up. The purpose of prayer is not to ask for stuff or beg for stuff or hope real hard that your wishes come true. The purpose of prayer is to get yourself lined up with the living Word.
Don’t trust any man, including me or your pastor, to interpret the Word for you. It’s a Living Book and He most definitely wants to be known. That’s why He sent the Book in the first place. Don’t listen to men and the books they write. Just seek Him. He’ll let you know where, when and to whom you need to submit and then work around them if He has to. He probably will have to but He’s good at at it because He’s been doing it ever since the original sin in the garden.
You and I may be saying tangential things, DC, just from different angles. We’re two different parts of Christ’s body. Both of us…and all the others who participate in or read these threads…are needed. Thanks for helping me remember that.
:o)
Oh, and congrats on 50+ comments!
We most definitely are members of the same body. Since I can’t have ya for my own, I’m glad you’re my sister, Elena. If I’m ever too harsh about this stuff, don’t take it personal. I love you and hate religion. Sometimes I don’t make that line too clear when I try to express myself. As for the number of comments, Thanks, I guess. I wouldn’t have even noticed the comment count if you and cZja hadn’t mentioned it. I couldn’t care less. That’s not why I do this.
*de-lurking to ask* Can you please comment on this? So many believers are driven to experiential anecdote as a determination or justification for their behavior/belief and then when questioned, don’t defend their argument from a biblical standpoint. In fact, they spend more time “defending” their right to believe than actually learning in humility. (I am not accusing you of this, just a general commentary on modern day Laodicean Christianity)
Notice that those who had an experience with God fell on their faces in worship and fear!
Gen 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying ….
Jos 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? 14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? 15 And the captain of the LORD’s host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Eze 1:28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.
Eze 43:1 Afterward he brought me to the gate, even the gate that looketh toward the east: 2 And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east: and his voice was like a noise of many waters: and the earth shined with his glory. 3 And it was according to the appearance of the vision which I saw, even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city: and the visions were like the vision that I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell upon my face.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. 6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
When God met with these it was not in a corporate setting. Their falling on their faces was in awe and fear.
Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
This is not some hypnotic trance. They fell in worship and awe of God.
When Christ breathed on the disciples did they fall down? Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Those who promote “slain in the spirit” use Saul’s encounter with God on the road to Damascus for Biblical support. Act 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Saul was not a believer and was on his way to persecute more of the Christians. He fell to the earth when he was knocked down to the ground by the Sheckinah glory and a revelation from the Lord. No one touched him or knocked him down and no one caught him. In fact all that were with him fell to the ground. Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Since Paul was an unbeliever how does this provide justification for slaying in the spirit today?
Notice those that were not saved and in judgment from God fell backward, but again no one catches them.
Joh 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. 6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
1Sa 4:18 And it came to pass, when he made mention of the ark of God, that he fell from off the seat backward by the side of the gate, and his neck brake, and he died: for he was an old man, and heavy. And he had judged Israel forty years.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Saul had just heard of his impending death from Samuel and he fell full length on the ground. 1Sa 28:20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Does being slayed in the spirit make one closer to God? Are they more spiritual? Why does someone have to catch you? Why would God want you to pass out? Why would this be the way to have an experience the Holy Spirit when you already have him in you as a Christian? Why is none of this mentioned in the Bible? Why, because this is straight from the devil. This spirit is not of God. This is of the antichrist. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
I would hardly call an anonymous comment that quotes scripture and then makes wildly ignorant accusations in the closing paragraph, “de-lurking.” I should’ve picked up on your insincerity when I read “Can you please comment on this?” after I just wrote over 1500 words on it. I’m going to answer your insincere questions anyway, for the benefit of those who might genuinely want to know the truth.
Does being slayed in the spirit make one closer to God? Are they more spiritual?
Any encounter with the anointing brings you closer to God in some form or fashion. It doesn’t make you more spiritual, it means God showed up and you got blessed with His tangible presence. On a side note, this is not the first time I’ve encountered that second question from someone denying the power of God. It’s dripping with insecurity to the point of hostility. I have never at any time said anything that could even be misconstrued as saying that the baptism of the Holy Spirit makes me better than anyone else or more spiritual. I’ve never heard anyone say or imply any such thing. I’d like to know who the religious nutjobs are out there poisoning the discussion with this crap. Now THAT’S straight from the devil.
Why does someone have to catch you?
They don’t have to and sometimes don’t. It’s a courtesy.
Why would God want you to pass out?
It’s not “passing out.” You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
Why would this be the way to have an experience the Holy Spirit when you already have him in you as a Christian? Why is none of this mentioned in the Bible?
Because God is bigger than your religion and can operate in more than the ways you’ve voted to approve. Also, Holy Spirit is not in you just because you are born again and/or call yourself “Christian.” The baptism of the Holy Ghost is a separate experience, is evidenced by a heavenly prayer language that is then always available to you and this experience is available to all born again believers. You won’t get it sniping at things you don’t understand. If you seek Truth, you will find it. Just make sure you’re seeking it from Him and not some bunch of man-made hogwash that uses a committee or a board to decide what’s Truth.
It is mentioned in the Bible. In fact, you cited some places yourself.
Why, because this is straight from the devil. This spirit is not of God. This is of the antichrist. 2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Be careful. You’re on very dangerous ground. You’re spouting religious nonsense about something of which you are completely ignorant. You seem very touchy about it and I can understand why, Anonymous.
DC,
Just dropped by looking for your email address since I’ve been out of town and haven’t mailed something I promised. I’d like to offer a comment and since I’m not a regular here please excuse my ignorance of the ongoing conversation.
I think one reason (a legitimate one in my opinion) that those who don’t share your belief in modern physical manifestations of the Holy Spirit, is that the experiences witnessed today are mostly different than those recorded in scripture. I admit that the Bible does make reference to the types of experiences that you are describing, so understand I am not saying they are Biblically prohibited or impossible.
I think the situation is similar to what Paul was addressing in his thoughts on “decently and in order”.
When I see folks acting in strange ways, babbling incoherently, falling over when touched/slapped, shouting that God just gave them a message etc my first reaction, and that of most people, is that something is wrong, because the behavior isn’t normal.
The next question is what’s wrong. Because of the Benny Hinn types, most folks first reaction is that this stuff is fake. Thousands experience something with Hinn, but you can’t prove to a Biblical standard that it is from God.
I believe this is why we are given instruction to “test the spirits”.
Now if a Christian has looked into this and tested/compared what they are observing against what the Bible has recorded and they decide that it isn’t the same, they have an obligation to reject it. Some may even decide that the overwhelming evidence is against this practice existing today.
Understand I’m not addressing your personal experiences here. I have no first hand evidence to do that, also I have no reason to doubt your word from what I read. I am trying to explain that, the skeptical view is also a valid one from a scriptural prespective.
DC,
I realized that I paraphrased a couple of verses that you’re likely familure with but some one else might not be. The first is from a section dealing with spiritual gifts and worship.
1 Cor 14:40
Let all things be done decently and in order.
The second was:
1 John 4:1
4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Right now I don’t have time to read this (I’m busy at work for the first time in weeks-this is good) but I’ll post my comment.
When iron sharpens iron, sparks are bound to fly.
I’ll come back later, read the posting, and see if this applies…
I have no problem with believing in manifestations of the Holy Spirit. I have spoken in tongues and I have prophesied. I have had dreams and visions and words of knowledge.
The problem is not the Holy Spirit but the church. Specifically, it’s the secular culture that has spilled over in to the church. We want to be entertained, we want to come away from church with a particular feeling or experience. The problem with this is the mentality that the experience is the goal because that’s what we’ve become accustomed to.
Several years ago I was praying with two friends. Our prayers were being actively opposed by demonic forces. Fortunately, that only strengthened our resolve and we prayed more fervently. It was an incredible time of prayer and we all walked away from it in awe of our Savior.
Later that evening, I was reflecting on how awesome the experience was. That’s when I realized that the experience is not and should not be the goal. The experiences we have in God’s presence are STARTING POINTS for His work in us and through us.
I can go to church week in and week out and leave feeling “pumped up” for a variety of reasons, perhaps I was convicted of my sin and I repented or I experience the joy of the Holy Spirit or perhaps worship was particularly blessed that day. If I don’t then take those experiences out in to the world and DO something with them, I am utterly useless.
That’s not to say that God’s work in me is no good, but if I’m not rendering myself a willing vessel for His use after he has molded me (the experiences) then I am not walking in faith and I have no reward. Still, He can use me despite myself.
Many of the evangelical/pentecostal churches (most actually) lean in the direction of hyper-emotionalism and striving to experience the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and not keeping in mind that those manifestations are God’s tools to prompt us to be doers of the Word. It is of course a very good thing that we feel blessed and are able to have an emotional outpouring but it’s not the goal.
God’s Holy Spirit is with us as a guide, not an entertainer. Beyond the day of Pentecost, the New Testament doesn’t mention another gathering quite like it. That’s not to say that similar things didn’t happen but that it wasn’t the goal. Pentecost came at the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles for a reason; it was their catalyst, their starting block. Through them, the world was blessed and ministry was launched. Paul didn’t talk about speaking in tongues and healing and such as exciting events, he spoke about them in terms of the fruits derived from those events.
Again, I have no problem with Pentecostal doctrine per se, I have a huge problem with how it’s put in to practice today. Benny Hinn is a disgrace to the Body of Christ for essentially making a game show out of the Gospel. I once saw him on tv wind up and pitch the Holy Spirit out to the audience; it was disgusting. There are others too. I’ve been in other churches with very questionable practices. Speaking in tongues going on uninterpreted and many people speaking out at once. I’ve seen so called “holy laughter”, that was really creepy, it actually sounded more like very strange sobbing. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve laughed out loud with joy and I was glad in my heart but this was something different and not right. I’ve seen people coached in to speaking in tongues.
On the flip side of that coin, I have been underwhelmed by other churches that have great teaching but lack any manifestation of the Holy Spirit at all. Calvary Chapel is a big example of this. They totally downplay all such things. No one at a Calvary Chapel service (at least not the main one in Costa Mesa, CA) would dare speak in tongues or prophesy and very few people even raise their hands during worship. In some of the smaller Calvary Chapel churches I have seen some laying on of hands etc., but it’s all very reserved and frankly it’s a bit stunted. But they have AWESOME Bible teaching. Most of the Calvary Chapel’s do a great job in educating their congregations about the Bible but the emotion and the experience get left outside completely.
My dillema is trying to decide which is better (since I can’t seem to find anywhere that’s balanced), a church that doesn’t go far enough (not allowing the Holy Spirit free reign) or a church that goes overboard (tries to whip everyone up in to a Holy Spirit frenzy). I’ll admit, I’m more comfortable with Calvary Chapel because it’s not full of the chaos I’ve seen in most of the Pentecostal church’s.
What’s the character limit on this thing anyway? I didn’t mean to write a novel.
I was going to let this particular dog finally go to sleep, but I really want to jump back in now. Res and Difster, you have brought out points that I didn’t break through my frustration to make. Thank you!
DC, I don’t doubt your own experiences. I do doubt the manifestations that promote chaos rather than unity within a worship time or within the life of a particular church. I agree with Difster that we are filled by the Holy Spirit not to get a good feeling and get excited about worshiping God but to apply that power as God directs us to build up, train up, grow the body of Christ and to be witnesses of God’s manifold grace to lost people. DC, I think you are genuinely trying to edify believers here. We’ll all keep sharpenin’ each other…not to see sparks fly…but to sculpt one another to look more and more like Jesus.
What’s the character limit on this thing anyway? I didn’t mean to write a novel.
There is no character limit at this ranch. This ain’t Haloscan. Should we take “novel” to mean it was all fiction?
Just kidding. I’m in a little lighter mood today than I was when I wrote the post and responded to “Anonymous.”
Elena,
I agree with you about chaos. That generally results from people in leadership who do not understand spiritual authority. I’ve mostly seen that in religious settings (the UPC for example). A move of Holy Spirit in a congregation isn’t immune to corruption or distortion by ignorant, fleshly people anymore than anything else in the Word.
Again, you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because some people do it wrong, doesn’t mean it’s not of God.
Dis,
You raised an excellent point that I should have thought of, thank you.
Too much of what is passed off as the Holy Spirit is really nothing more than hyped up emotionalism.
I believe that the Christian life is to have both an emotional and intellectual attachment. “Love God with all your heart, soul and mind”, is a command that involves both the intellect and the emotional side of man. I would challenge you to consider that emotional experience and outward expressions in worship aren’t necessarily the same for all people. Just because folks aren’t raising their hands or being slain in the spirit doesn’t mean that they aren’t worshiping God appropriately. Raising hands in worship is never mentioned in the Bible, unless you consider Paul’s command for men to do so as a part of prayer. Just because someone doesn’t do it doesn’t mean anything, the same with all the other “spiritual acts, or gifts of the Holy Spirit” that some are so found of.
It can be very easy to get into the mind set of, “the way we do it at my church or the way I like is the ‘right’ way” thinking. This is a way of passing judgment on other Christian folks without knowing their heart. We are called to worship, not critique the other worshipers. The only time I believe a Christian has a right to be critical of the church’s worship is if they believe the congregation is doing something contrary to Biblical teaching. If this is the case than the person who sees an error has a responsibility to teach the others what they see the Bible as teaching.
Maybe this is a topic for another post but….
“Again, you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Just because some people do it wrong, doesn’t mean it’s not of God.”
So how would Elena, or anybody, know that what they were seeing was for real and not just a show? How should a Christian “test the spirits” so to speak?
So how would Elena, or anybody, know that what they were seeing was for real and not just a show? How should a Christian “test the spirits” so to speak?
This is a very valid question and you are correct that it is most certainly for another post. I’ll have to give it some thought. I know how I do it, but it’s more of a training thing and being sensitive to the Holy Spirit. I’m not sure I know how to teach it in a blog post.
I’ll work on it, though. Thanks for bringing it up, Res. It should be addressed.
DC,
Thanks for taking a crack at it. There was a time that I had to put serious thought into why I believed things that I did. The reason was somebody taught me such and such. Which was ok most of the time. Now I question more and think harder about why I believe what I believe. I am a lot more inqusitive about the “why” of belief now than I was. Even if it doesn’t “come out perfect” please do take a try at it. Thanks
DC,
First off I want to apologize. I was “anonymous” and being more than a little computer stupid I didn’t intend to leave my name off. I lurk here and there and found the link to your blog off of Vox Day. I came back the next day to update with my name and decided not to stick around for a 2nd spanking. Secondly, as the child of a “holy roller” pentecostal preacher who had also spent several years going to a vineyard church during the “refreshing” I’ve seen my fair share of “demonstrative worship”. I have also seen it abused and people being led astray by an emotional/experiential faith that has nothing to do with Christ. All that said, I over-reacted on my own personal soap box and acted like a jerk in your house. My apologies. I still lurk and do appreciate your thoughtful reasoned responses,even if I don’t always agree.
Heidi,
I’m impressed by your courage and I accept your apology. I wouldn’t have spanked so hard if the post had not been anonymous.
I hope you’ll accept my apology for being a bit too harsh. And I hope you’ll stick around.
If you meant by “pentecostal” that your dad was UPC, we might could chew some fat together. They’re just as religious as the Baptists and Methodists and Catholics. Just don’t let men corrupting what God’s doing turn you against the whole idea of what God’s doing, especially when it’s scriptural, as you pointed out here while trying to disprove it. (I aborted the follow up post that I promised because you did all the work for me.)
DC,
No worries. If I occasionally flinch for no reason at least you’ll know why. Ok, maybe that’s not funny. Anyway. My dad was a proud UPC missionary/pastor for years until he failed to adequately toe the line and was booted. Religion bites. I’m just glad I finally found Christ. Without the help of Holiness Standards, *gasp* speaking in tongues OR being baptized in Jesus Name ONLY. Whatever. It would be interesting to hear your UPC stories.
Oh, by saying whilst arguing my own point I made your point for you, am I being found guilty of some variety of ridiculous circular logic! Curses, it’s the female gene, I can’t help myself.